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Problem 569 (& Version 569.1): Vitaly Medintsev, Nikola Predrag, Juraj Lorinc - Fairy (HS#)
vitaly.medintsevnikola.predragjuraj.lorinc(07.04.2015) ODT and AB-BA play in elegant Meredith form - this is the first Help-Selfmate by Vitaly Medintsev!
 
The problem is replaced by version 569.1 by the three co-authors.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
569.1111
 
1...Qh6+ A 2.Rg5 Rc8+ B 3.Sc5+ Rxc5#
1...Rc8+ B 2.Bc7 Qh6+ A 3.Sf4+ Qxf4#
 
Interchange of B1/B2, Anti-critical W2 and pin-mates with complete orthogonal-diagonal analogy of the play in light Meredith setting. (Author)
 

 

569.1

1.Sc5?
1.Sf2 Bc5+(Bb8+?) 2.Bg6 Ra4+ 3.Sd3+ Bxd3#
1.Sg5 Rc5+(Ra4+?) 2.Re2 Bb8+ 3.Se6+ Rxe6#

Dual-avoidance through the correction of strategy to put the tactical potential of the batteries in a proper service of the logic. (Authors)
 

Comments  

 
+5 #1 Juraj Lorinc 2015-04-06 22:52
It is relatively easy to add thematical W1 and even save one unit:

White : Kc1 Rh7a5 Bh2 Se5
Black : Ke6 Qd3 Rf8 Bg7 Pf6a3
hs#3 2.1.1.1.1.1

I see Bg7 move opens wR, but this is just to show the possibility, even better setting should be possible too.
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+3 #2 Aleksey Oganesjan 2015-04-07 06:47
Here is the diagram of Juraj's version:

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+3 #3 Vitaly Medintsev 2015-04-07 08:19
I thank Juraj for pointing out a great possibility to compose a complete hs#3 and I ask Diyan to publish the following version instead of the initial one:



UPDATE it is not actual comment, see comment #37
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+1 #4 Rodolfo Riva 2015-04-08 01:42
I think Juraj was suggesting:

4r1b1/6R1/3kp3/R2S4/8/2q5/P7/1K5B (6+5) HS#3
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+1 #5 Aleksey Oganesjan 2015-04-09 14:42
Here is the Rodolfo's diagram:

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+1 #6 Vitaly Medintsev 2015-04-09 17:42
Thanks Rodolfo but I prefer the version without technical WP and with a better geometry of the white play
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+1 #7 Juraj Lorinc 2015-04-09 20:41
Naturally there are many possible correct versions of this matrix. Personally I see no big difference between white play in the Rodolfo's and Vitaly's, but I understand it can be felt different. Pa2 could be replaced by bSc1 in Rodolfo's version. On another note, it is questionable whether white or black economy has precedence in hs#. To conclude: as long as the strategy is the same and various aspects of the chosen version could be explained by personal preferences, I am fine with them.
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+2 #8 Vitaly Medintsev 2015-04-10 08:25
Juraj, the lenth of WB/WR moves is visually equal in our joint work; it is an additional aestetic value, on my glance. Among other things I prefer the playing BQ (not static).
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+2 #9 Rodolfo Riva 2015-04-10 14:13
About comment 7#:
in my opinion in HelpSelf and Selfmate it is preferable to save the black units instead of white.
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+3 #10 Nikola Predrag 2015-04-11 00:28
White must force Black to do what White wants.
To me, it's interesting to see how White can do that using the least possible force in a highly efficient and delicate way.
"Excessive" white force is interesting only as much as Black might use it for defense.

But some people enjoy seeing an excessive force at work against a weak opponent.
That's a question of various general principles.

Selfmates offer great possibilities of using the same piece (white or black) for both White's and Black's purposes.
A specific role of a certain piece is crucial when the economy is considered.
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+3 #11 Nikola Predrag 2015-04-11 00:29
Helpselfmates are cooperative until the end when White must force Black to play against his will.
And again, the least white force is a general principle to me.
So in hs#, when both W&B forces are at necessary minimum, white economy would appear as slightly more important.

Anyway, bP which guards a flight by Pawn's power has more dignity than wP making a selfblock as a "dummy".
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+1 #12 Rodolfo Riva 2015-04-12 09:41
HelpSelf is cooperative until just before the end when it is a Selfmate in all respects. Wanting to evaluate an HelpSelf I apply the same criteria for the Selfmate and because of the Help component would add some other criteria:
(when possible) multisolutions instead of the twin form, lack of cookstoppers, all units must work in each solution, model mates, number and weight of static pieces, etc.
The "dignity" of a dummy is a smoky and useless concept when it comes to (not too serious) research.
Of course we don't need the abacus or sophisticated programs
like "Chesthetica" to value the impact of tactical elements.
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+1 #13 Rodolfo Riva 2015-04-12 09:48
In the schemes #2 and #7 the bPa3 and the wPa2 are static and both play against the wK. Please, notice that the wP is not an "excessive force at work against a weak opponent" but play against the wK in the most natural way (the Nicola's statement is a contradiction). This is nothing new, even in the initial position of the game little dummies play an active role aagainst the greatest.
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+1 #14 Nikola Predrag 2015-04-14 04:45
Criteria for the Selfmate begin with a principle that White should achieve his goal with the minimal necessary force against the richest Black's defending potentials.

Black does not mate, he just plays the only legal move in the end, or precisely, after the game has already ended.

But that is only a most basic principle and should certainly not be dogmatically applied before fully understanding the content of each particular problem.

But the priority of black economy may be a principle only in certain type of selfmates, where the logic and strategy are not primary content.
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+1 #15 Nikola Predrag 2015-04-14 04:45
In Vitaly's problem, wP or bP is irrelevant for the idea.
wPa2 immediately hurts the eye of a helpmate composer in such an airy position.

But I agree, helpselfmate is a different genre and the idea should be realized with less static pieces, especially officers (white or black).

The question of a "dummy" is about a respect to the pieces. The potential power of any piece should be fully used if that is possible. Downgrading the officers to a lesser rank is offending, of course in principle.

That's why Vitaly's preference of an "active Queen" is not convincing. She has the thematic essence of a Bishop.
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+1 #16 Vitaly Medintsev 2015-04-14 11:49
Quote:
But the priority of black economy may be a principle only in certain type of selfmates, where the logic and strategy are not primary content.

- Exactly!
Being seeing Juraj's version, my main goal was to make the black play more homogenious by means of elimination of line-opening effect in the play of BB.
The second goal (less important) was to replace static BQ with two units with less power (absolute value).
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+1 #17 Vitaly Medintsev 2015-04-14 11:50
Quote:
That's why Vitaly's preference of an "active Queen" is not convincing. She has the thematic essence of a Bishop.

I have explained why I didn't accepted Rodolfo's version. It is the matter of personal taste, mainly.
By the way, in my version BQ plays orthogonally and diagonally. Bishop can not do the first thing.
Anyway, playing BQ is better than a static one.
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+1 #18 Rodolfo Riva 2015-04-14 16:36
In Selfmate the "richest Black's defending potential" is more valuable when it is obtained with the minimal necessary Black units (not easy to do).
I don't have a preference for any kind of composition, so I don't mind if I see helpmates with piles of black wood surrounding the poor betrayed black King in not too airy positions.
In composition and OTB "downgrading the officers to a lesser rank" may be a need or a strategic choice, nothing to do with antiquated concepts.
Of course the mentioned criteria are secondary to the strategic content.
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+1 #19 Nikola Predrag 2015-04-14 16:50
bQ plays orthogonally because you constructed it ARTIFICIALLY. There's no thematic need for bQ as the other versions clearly show.
And that orthogonal move is repeated exactly. bQ should at least check diagonally from different squares, to "prove" that it's needed.

Your idea is beautiful with white anticritical moves and the repeated B1/B2 moves with reciprocally different final purposes make a simple but very efficient/economical mechanism.

If you want a true Queen and a more complex mechanism of cyclic functions, here's a rough example:
W: Re8 Ka6 Sc5 Pg2 Bb1
B: Rb7 Rc7 Ph7 Pg5 Kf4 Pg4 Bf3 Pg3 Be1 Qh1
Stipulation hS#2.5
1...Qf1+ 2.Re2 Re7 3.Se6+ Rxe6#
1...Qh6+ 2.Bg6 Be2+ 3.Sd3+ Bxd3#
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0 #20 Aleksey Oganesjan 2015-04-14 18:20
Here is the Nikola's diagram:

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